Curse

art_ · Feb 11, 2006, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Problem is your emote shows at least some commitment to pvp. A lot of pve-ers just walk into HA and expect to be invited into a winning build and coached thru to stardom, when it clearly doesn't work like that. They all say 'mY rank is low but I'm a really really good player and i have gvg experience' but most of that is bs. GvG experience means the three matches their guild played to get to r4000, and they just expect to play their pve builds in pvp. Fact is pvp doesn't work like that, real people don't act anything like the ai of this game, and experience in pve means absolutely nothing to how good you are at pvp.

What im saying is rank is a good barometer of commitment to the game. If you cant be bothered to 'grind' to r3 then you haven't got the commitment or sustainted interest of somebody who people would be happy to tombs with. If you want to play tombs casually, go ahead, but do it with people just like you who don't take it seriously, and be aware that you won't be very successful.

/endrant

Warskull · Feb 11, 2006, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Ranks has a large number of issues, but it needs to exist. Without it a lot of people would never take a person they didn't know into the group. Unfortunately it isn't a good measure of skill. Personally when I am in tombs, unless I know the player I expect even rank 9 players to be grossly incompetent. I just hope the higher ranked players can listen a bit better and maybe know a little about how to play.

Epinephrine · Feb 11, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

I've held HoH at this point; been there 3 times, held it for a run of 3 the other night. Earned a ton of fame, boosting me to rank 2. I'm not a bad player, I just play TA and GvG mostly, as I hate the tombs (now HA) idiocy.

Rank FTL, lol. Gotta suck to be in some rank 6+ IWAY and see a Me/E on the team that just flawlessed you gain rank 2. That's what rank is worth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

if fame reset 95% for current ranked tomb player will leave ...

Good riddance.

Flyte · Feb 11, 2006, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Here is an idea.

Make rank based on fame AND faction. Or at least create a seprate emote list for people with high faction.

Fame is faction for people with access to TS...

Lady Frost Bite · Feb 11, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celios

I have yet to see rank applied to anything PvE and it's likewise pretty obvious that a large influx of unranked players will be followed by a large influx of unranked groups. By your logic Anet should reset everyone's faction, unlocks, bank account and uber-items to give everyone an "equal" start with the new players of chapter 2. It's not going to happen.

you just don't get it and never will..

Rogmar · Feb 11, 2006, 10:24 PM // 22:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

WE REALLY DONT NEED ANOTHER THREAD GOING AGAINST AND FLAMING RANK USE THE SEARCH BUTTON,this thread is bound to be closed.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...highlight=rank
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...highlight=rank

And double posting/caps helps? Use your head.

Cjlr · Feb 11, 2006, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Catch 22's are actually pretty amusing, if you look at it right. And you're willing to suppress the indignance of the sheer stupidity evidenced in it sometimes... Now, the following are anything but completely true, but make for a decent summary.

You must have rank to get a good group.
You must be in a good group to get rank.

See the catch? Of course you do. What if you don't have any fame? Why then, you must suck! But why would you ever give someone a chance to get better? Can't be having that, oh no...

/sigh.

The Real Roy Keane · Feb 11, 2006, 10:37 PM // 22:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cecil Barracks

In the past I had done it (When it was Tombs) and gotten a measly 21 Fame from that one run. Since then I've pretty much avoided it.
Back to the Desert.

If you got 21 fame in one run,that's a HoH win,which is hardly discouraging.And don't mind the rank 9's who flame you for using IWAY..chances are they spirit spammed and fought in smite teams back in the day.

lishi · Feb 11, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjlr

Catch 22's are actually pretty amusing, if you look at it right. And you're willing to suppress the indignance of the sheer stupidity evidenced in it sometimes... Now, the following are anything but completely true, but make for a decent summary.

You must have rank to get a good group.
You must be in a good group to get rank.

See the catch? Of course you do. What if you don't have any fame? Why then, you must suck! But why would you ever give someone a chance to get better? Can't be having that, oh no...

/sigh.

not really , you can try to convice a good group to take you ...

if they wont take you, well no one is paying them to play, and no one can force them.

Kassad · Feb 12, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

It took me 5 months to get r3, and I havent even won halls yet. It was mostly 1 fame a day or 2 due to the fact PUGs suck. Most of my fame has come to the first round 1 fame win, Because back in the day they got owned in the 2nd round by spirit spam/smite guild teams.

CAT · Feb 12, 2006, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by knives

Those who don't have rank probably don't know what those who have are talking about.

Exactly

And if you guys are as good as r3/6/9+ players just join the groups anyway... if they emote check then too bad. I rarely emote check anyone unless its a r9+ group, if you suck you suck. And people say "omg everyone else in the group sucks but i dont" but ive taken noobs that say that into my groups and every time they suck. People who have earned their rank have the right to let whoever they want in their group. If you are going to complain about OTHER peoples groups try making your own group for a change?

RotteN · Feb 12, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

i've been starting R6+ groups myself since i was R3. I even levelled to R4 in one of those groups, they all laughed at it and said "well, at least you have the balls to pull off somethin like this". No one has ever complained about me not playing good or RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing up.

Complaining about the vicious circle thing is rather cheap. Just start your own group (ranked or unranked) and off you go ...

for the record : about 10% of my pvp time is tombs, as opposed to 90% of gvg, and i realy don't feel like spending time in groups that hardly know what they're doin, just because i have a low rank.

Celios · Feb 12, 2006, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Frost Bite

you just don't get it and never will..

Well there's a convincing argument if I've ever heard one. The simple fact of the matter is that you're wrong - rank doesn't play a huge role in any part of gw (in PvE it means nothing and in PvP you can still find unranked groups - something which will become easier not harder) and won't prevent any new players from enjoying the game. I'd be willing to bet that a MASSIVE portion of the current community is r0 to boot.

This isn't Eve Online where the order in which players bought the game determines where they will stay through the rest of their experience. Rank isn't the end-all and be-all of gw and people should stop treating the fact that there's a few r3+ or r6+ PUGs in HA like the end of the world. Rank is a simple and quick method of picking up players you don't know who are likely to be in the same experience and competence zone as you. I've been in enough ranked groups to know that most of these "elitists" players don't give a crap if someone turns r2 in the middle of a r8-9 group as long as they know what they're doing.

tastegw · Feb 12, 2006, 03:02 AM // 03:02

ill give my input here.

ive been r9+ since october, but i moved in november from the east coast in north carolina to the west coast to cali. i left my guild "apathy inc" because i was no longer in their playing hours. now im guildless. but i can say as a rank 9+ that the reason most of us like to play in 'high" ranked groups if we go pugging is because of the maps, not just any map, but the last 3 maps of tombs.

"the courtyard" : 3 way capture the alter match.

"sacred temple" ( think its called): relic run (very dynamic map)

and "the hall of heroes": up to 6 teams total then it goes to a 3 way cature the alter match.

ask yourself this, who has been to these last three critical maps more.....a rank 9+ or a rank 2+?
in my opinion the 2nd to last map "sacred temple" needs to be very well known if you want to be in one of my pug groups.

i would really expect somebody to know that you can shoot arrows thru the door but you cant shoot accross the door with its open. i would expect somebody to know how to body block the different stair steps there.

everybody and their mother knows the first few maps, but do you really think as a rank 2 player you can be just as good at the last 3 maps as sombody with 5,000 MORE fame than you? i really think not.

if im making a pug, i for the most part drop down to recruiting rank 6+. rank 6 players have a minimum of 1000 fame. and i feel that somewhere between 1000 fame and 2000 fame you have learned the last 3 maps like the back of your hand.

getting to rank 7 or 8 or 9 doesnt mean that you have grinded fame. yes i agree that those iway teams are grinding but they are getting minimal fame from it, compaired to teams that can hold hoh for an hour at a time.

when you can get 250 fame from one run because you know what your doing and the rest of your team knows what they are doing why on earth would you even consider taking anyone who doesnt know the maps even half as well as your pet wolf does?

ive had ppl say to me, " im rank 5 allmost rank 6 can you please take me".
and honestly i really feel bad rejecting them, but from my experience, these so called rank 5's that want in the group cant even produce a skill that i have assigned for them if they were to join.

the rank can go more than just "rank" and map experience.
for me, i have one true pve character, and i dont play pve anymore untill chapter 2 comes out, getting fame and rank came hand in hand with gaining faction and unlocking all the items and skills, shortly after the whole faction system came along i was maxed out. i think it was that faction weekend where i got maxed. the point is, higher ranks for the most part will have more items skills unlocked and 100% of all rank 9 chars should be 100% unlocked. im also sure that alot of the rank 1 crowd are also 100% unlocked cause they are pve RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOs. but witch took longer?

just because you the thread starter has played so long doesnt entittle you to play with the bigger pvp crowd.
stating that you have beat the game with your warrior doesnt give you the right to get in those ranked groups that you crave for.

i wouldnt even let a member of a top guild if all he ever did was gvg, he could be the best single gvg player out there, but if he doesnt know the maps of tombs then he doesnt get the chance to play with my time.

i can tell you from expeirence, i didnt get to where i am 2day from total random pugs, most of all my groups were either guild groups with AI or "friendship" pugs with a minimal number of real "pug" players. so 5 friends and 3 randoms would be a safe number to go with, but were those 3 randoms complete randoms? no, they all had to check out and either lie to say they had the right amout of fame or were honest about it, i never asked to see the emote. but if somebody said they are rank 6 but dont have a particular skill, then i would just have to boot them. cause to me, not having all the skills in the game at this point (pvp earned or pve earned) means you have alot of learning to do before you can run with this crowd and its no power trip. not only must you obtain that skill, you must know how to use it and when to use it.

ive seen some guilds go into gvg with a player or two assigned a skill that they had to go buy before battle, im thinking, what kind of shit is that? your asking for a loss when you do that.

so to all the ppl who complain about rank means nothing, consider why your saying it and think outside the box and look to see why ppl are requiring rank.

just like alot of ppl have said before, we all started with 0 rank and 0 fame.
live and learn myfriend.

Gaile Gray · Feb 12, 2006, 03:23 AM // 03:23

So we have a Catch 22, it's true: You can't get Rank if you don't participate, and you can't participate if you don't have Rank.

In my naivete, I thought "Oh, nice, cute little emotes to show that people have been playing a lot and doing well." Yep, I wasn't seeing it clearly. I must have forgotten the days of the SC ladder and how numbers were "the be all and end all" of getting onto a competitive team.

It seems many agree there's good in having Rank -- well deserved recognition for one thing -- but also a drawback. What could we do to encourage people to, I don't know, reach out, include, help train the next batch of competitive players? Maybe to engage those of "lowly rank"

by offering a place as a guest on their team?

Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

awesome sauce · Feb 12, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Well, you can thank IWAY for the whole rank seperation in the first place. If it wasn't for iway, 95% of the people who have r3 or 6 today would not be so, and it would be much easier for everybody to find a group. The rest would be an elite hundred or less r9+ hanging out in id1, and you would rarely have to face their groups

I remember the days back within the first month that the game came out when i would be invited into a group before i could even load the map. Then we would go on a good two to five game run, occasionally making it to halls. I got to halls more in that first month than I ever have since.

Im r4(I mostly got it from air spike, not iway)... but i would go back to r0 again if they just eliminated the rank seperation.

EDIT: To answer gaile's question, here's my suggestion. New players obviously can't win very much in tombs anymore, so give them credit for things that they can win in, like GvG. GvG is the only type of pvp that matches teams evenly, so they can face teams that they can actually beat. Give them... say 3 fame for each gvg victory. Then when they gain enough fame from gvg they can be more accepted in tombs. It's been suggested many times before, so obviously there's a lot of support for it anyways. Or, alternatively, just eliminate the rank emote all-together.

Divinus Stella · Feb 12, 2006, 03:57 AM // 03:57

Ranks are getting de-valued, builds like EoE bomb and IWAY that take next to no skill to win with and offer no chance for players to further pvp abilities, but those players are still rewarded the same rewards as another person who is trying multiple builds and evolving their builds, they will both eventually reach their desired rank, but one will be a well rounded player with the capability to play several builds the other will know nothing but still get into the same teams.

Thats one of the reasons pugs are upping the rank requirement, not long ago rank3 was an indication of an experienced pvper, but as a result of certain FOTM builds people are finding useless players getting into their groups so they up the requirement to prevent that happening.

I know theres a lot of FOTM fans about, but i really think anet needs to be faster balancing or "nerfing" these builds to prevent players being able to use a single build to reach rank6+.

art_ · Feb 12, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Divinus Stella

Ranks are getting de-valued, builds like EoE bomb and IWAY that take next to no skill to win with and offer no chance for players to further pvp abilities,

Beating a decent guild with IWAY in tombs is a big achievement as they are all 100% prepared to face IWAY.

Divinus Stella · Feb 12, 2006, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Not entirely true, a lot of the decent guilds are wanting to hold rather than just farm fame in the initial maps, they take 'holding' builds into tombs that arent designed to excel at 1v1 anihilation maps but are isntead designed for HoH, so taking out a high ranked guild in UW with IWAY does not mean that you are skilled.

tastegw · Feb 12, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gaile Gray

So we have a Catch 22, it's true: You can't get Rank if you don't participate, and you can't participate if you don't have Rank.

In my naivete, I thought "Oh, nice, cute little emotes to show that people have been playing a lot and doing well." Yep, I wasn't seeing it clearly. I must have forgotten the days of the SC ladder and how numbers were "the be all and end all" of getting onto a competitive team.

It seems many agree there's good in having Rank -- well deserved recognition for one thing -- but also a drawback. What could we do to encourage people to, I don't know, reach out, include, help train the next batch of competitive players? Maybe to engage those of "lowly rank"

by offering a place as a guest on their team?

Any time you have exclusivity, you risk long-term negative consequences. If we don't all play a role in training the upcoming and possibly brilliant new PvP players, who are we going to play against? Or play with? Isn't it our responsibility as a community to not slip into insular "in crowd" thinking, and then complain that there aren't enough matches worthy of our time?

Do you have ideas on how to be more inclusive while maintaining high standards of play?

your first line is false, as much as i love you and this game, that is really false

one great way to get good at tombs is to create or join a guild, a smaller guild of no more than 10-12 regualar active players for your pvp groups.
play together (even if your rank negative 10) and learn how to play together and start working on builds that work for you and your teammates. after a while, you will learn a build that is just right for your team/guild and what roles will get played by whom. you will soon notice that your skill level as a whole has greatly increased. now you can get a name for your small guild by outsiders and they will recognize you not as indiviuals but as a team.....a guild team.

when i was in apathy and at the begining of their tombing days, it was rough. we had a few guys that had zero rank and fame and we has some others with more experience. we worked as a small group of 9 regulars and we all had pretty much our roles cut out for us. after a while everyone knew what skills and character they would be for that night. before you knew it, our rank 0's were racing for rank 6+ and our others were racing for rank 9+.
this was all in a matter of 5-6 weeks. our team play level of skill was close to as good as it would get. we held halls on a daily basis with some of our players never even seeing halls before they joined our guild.

so when you say what you said, its not entirely true. i really hate for somebody with your sayso to think of it like you do.

the key to rank and fame is friends. after all, this is a team based game.